Select Board: November 15, 2023

Transcript captured from MHTV’s Vimeo auto-captioning. No speaker labels; proper names and dollar figures occasionally misheard. Click any timecode to jump to that moment in the source video.

0:01 I get to convene the meeting since we need to, uh, appoint a chair. So I will entertain a motion to ask for a nomination for Chair Pro Tempur Latin for, for the time being. I think so. So I’d like to make a motion to appoint Moses as, uh, the chair pro Tempur. Second. Second I give to Jim. Um, any other nominations? Hearing none. All those in favor, I think. Is this a roll call? No, this’s regular vote. All those in favor? And that is unanimous. Okay. Thank you. I just wanna let everybody know that the reason I’m, uh, chair pro Tempur is because Erin has a family medical emergency.

0:48 So, you know, I’m stepping in in the meantime, uh, while she addresses that. So, I’d like to announce that this meeting is being, uh, recorded via Zoom. We have a, uh, an agenda. We have what, uh, uh, 20 items in our agenda tonight. Uh, I’d like to start, uh, with, uh, the second item on our agenda, which is the Historical Commission. There’s an interview appointment if, if, uh, Mr. Bitterman is here, please step on up. David, have a seat. Welcome. Have a seat. Welcome. Thank you for volunteering. Good evening. We appreciate it. David, it’s not that we need, uh, you know, we, we need an introduction to you.

1:34 We have your letter, uh, you’ve, you have a, like, extensive service to the town, uh, and you’re almost the perfect candidate, both in terms of the, the length of your service and the expertise you bring. But I would ask that for the rest of the audience that you kind of give us a little background on, on, on yourself and why you’re interested in, in, in this position. Certainly, I turn around or, no, no, no. Don’t worry about it. No. Very good. See Me there? Yeah, that’s right. Okay. I’m, uh, David Bitterman. I live on, uh, on Harris Street downtown, and I’ve been a resident in, uh, Marblehead for 40 years now, and about 30 of those years have been in the, uh, downtown area.

2:19 I’ve, um, always been interested and captivated by the unique history of the town. In fact, that’s part of the reason, uh, why I wound up, uh, living here. But that’s, that’s another long story. But anyway, um, I’ve always wanted to help the town in whatever way I could to, uh, increase its awareness. Its understanding of the unique history it has. And, uh, I know, um, if we have continually increasing understanding, then, uh, it will assist in our ability to help, uh, educate others about it, uh, raise a greater sympathy understanding for it,

3:06 and in turn, help us to preserve and protect it. So that, that’s always been on my wishlist of, of things to, to get involved with, uh, my, uh, career. I’ve spent my entire career doing things like this for the National Park Service, and, uh, it has involved a lot of travel to the 83 historic sites, uh, up and down the, the Northeast. Uh, I recently retired from that position and full-time, that is, I, I still, uh, am associated with them on a part-time basis, but as a result, my travel is, is cut way down now. So I feel that I’m finally in a position to be able to jump in and turn whatever attention I can to helping out the community.

3:53 So I would, uh, really appreciate the opportunity to do that. I’ve been involved as in an associate capacity with the commission for a couple of years now, and have been actively working on the, uh, the plans that they’ve been developing for a some day museum up on the fourth floor here. Uh, and for the archive project and the 10 footer and some other things as well. So I very much appreciate the idea to, um, become involved in this even more. Outstanding. Thank you. Uh, we have your materials. Uh, does the board wish to, uh, comment, ask any questions, or, I don’t have any questions. Just thank you for applying. And also, you know, for all the work

4:38 that you’ve done just within your professional career, she’ll talk. Thank you. Yeah. I think we’ll be able to put to good use here. Yeah, We look forward To it. And thank you for volunteering. Thank you. All right. So with that, David, I’d like to, uh, entertain a motion to appoint David Bitterman to the historical commission with a term to expire in June of 2026. Yes. So moved. Second. Second. All those in favor, unanimous. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Thank, congratulations. Yeah. You, sir? Mm-Hmm. These already sworn in as a, uh, al alternate? I think so. Right. Good to go. I think. I think he’s good to go. Okay. Next item. Thank you. Thank you, David. Uh, the next, uh,

5:24 agenda item is a, is a Common Vic license. Uh, do we have, uh, Marja, nzi and, uh, Sila?

5:35 Have a seat. Please. Come on up and have a seat. Welcome. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you. We have your application. Thank you very much. And, uh, if you could tell us a little bit about, uh, what you, what you plan to do with the, Well, we’re actually, uh, Nino’s Roast beef, so Yep. We plan on keeping it the same. We’ve been in, I’ve actually been kind of a silent partner with my brother for the past six years. So I’ve been in town for a while, but we’re not really changing anything. Just, just keep it in the same, pretty much Keep it in the family. Keep it in the family. A wonderful establishment. Thank you. Very, Very important and long longstanding, though. Thank you. We thank you. We try Legendary. Legendary. And we appreciate all you do for the town. Thank you. We try. Thank you.

6:20 A hundred percent. Any questions? Comments? Okay. With that, I’d like to entertain a, a motion to app. Oh, are, are you, do you have anything else you before? No, thank you. That was a lot for me. Okay. It made him nervous that you have to give a speech. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, that’s, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s Pretty funny. Uh, I’d like to enter a motion to approve the application for a Common Vic license for Minos Roast Beef 27 Atlantic Avenue, uh, managers, uh, Marja Nochi and Xla Gina, our of operation, Monday through Saturday, 11:00 AM to 10:00 PM and Sundays 12 noon to 8:00 PM So moved. Second. All those in favor be unanimous. Thank you. Congratulations. Congratulations. Thank,

7:07 Thank you. Thank you so much. You down there soon. Thank you. Great, mark.

7:14 Okay, we now come to our next agenda item. And this is a public hearing on A-O-H-D-C appeal for 34 Front Street. Mm-Hmm. Um, I guess I’d like to ask, uh, Charles Hubbard of the old and Historic District Commission, the chair to, to come on up. If you wanna bring anybody else up, Charles, that’s fine too.

7:40 Come on. No. Yes. Come on. Plaintiff First. Plaintiff first. Oh, you do the, the commission will respond. Okay. Okay. Charles, I Afo, I apologize. No, that’s why the plaintiff has to come first. My, my apologies. I, I Thank you, Charles. Yeah, of course. Thank you for bringing that. Okay. Uh, I guess this, I need to, uh, hold on. Yeah. I stand corrected. Okay. This is an open hearing. I’m re resetting here. And this is an appeal by Sally Thompson, owner of 34 Front Street, Marblehead of the Old and Historic Marblehead District Commission, denial of a Certificate of Appropriateness and an order to remediate rendered on September 19th, 2023,

8:26 concerning exterior line sets at 34 Front Street. I just wanna confirm that each of the parties have, uh, received a notice of, of the hearing. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Um, okay. And I think we’re going to, uh, we’re gonna swear any, uh, swear anyone in who will be testifying. Uh, but the board has been provided with the following documents by the owner, notice of appeal from Schutzer, Lorian and Associate dated October 5th, 2023, OHDC, order of Remediation, dated September 19th, 2021, application for ti, certificate

9:13 of Appropriateness dated August 24th, 2023, OHTC, notice of Violation dated August 15th, 2023, meeting minutes from 9 7 22, 10 18, 22, 7 18, 23, and 9 19 3. Um, at this point, I’d like to allow the appellant or the homeowner to make a presentation at this point. Yeah, please come on up. Thank you. And welcome. So, thank You. Can I suggest, haven’t done a dog hearing Mm-Hmm. That any of the participants, you can swear ‘em all in at once. So, a little piece way to tell the truth, the whole truth. Uh, should we do this right now? Yeah. So that Okay.

9:59 Kinda the process, but as I did in the dog hearing, the other participants who may be speaking, I was about to say, so it’s probably better than doing just one at a time. Yeah. So why don’t we do, why don’t you, yeah. If you want to get to the microphone, Charles, that would be great. And I’m going to, if you can, uh, follow after me, uh, when, when I say state your name, you state your name. Okay. I state your name. Sally Thompson. I, Charles Bert Swear that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Swear that I will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Swear That I will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Please go ahead and proceed. Thank you for the record. My name is attorney Ken Schultz. I’m the, uh, the author of the correspondence date,

10:44 October the Fifth, to which you just alluded to, um, we’re here this evening, as you indicated, uh, as an appeal, uh, under your authority, uh, as the appellate board, uh, for oversight for the old and historic, uh, district committee. Um, the matter relates back, uh, to a mini split, which is a reasonably new concept, uh, in terms of, of air conditioning of homes, because a lot of the, the homes just couldn’t, uh, be retrofitted for the type of air conditioning that would’ve required, uh, putting, um, the, um, the flues and, and, and the pipes through the, through the home. So, but sort of dating back, um, to tonight 2020,

11:30 Ms. Thompson, uh, who was living in the house with her daughter, Ms. Thompson is here, her daughter is not. Her daughter, had undergone some, some brain surgery. And, uh, it was suggested that they couldn’t live in the house because it was, it was just too hot. Um, if you’re familiar, and I’m sure you are, with the property at 34 Front Street, it’s a rather small parcel, and it has no grass surrounding it. It’s just eats up. So she, she went, uh, to, uh, to the town hall to determine, uh, what would be the appropriate steps to take, because Ms. Thompson had been before olden historic on numerous occasions, uh, seeking other relief, you know, for gutters and, and other things. And, and there’s a record of that. Uh, but she couldn’t find any information with regard to, to what she proposed to do.

12:16 Um, it was during Covid, and that was one of the issues, was the unavailability of anybody to respond to any questions that she had regarding what needed to be done, uh, what should have been done. Um, the, the bylaw as it existed, uh, in 2020, uh, made reference, uh, to exterior, uh, condensers in the fact that they needed to be, um, obscured by some type of either foliage or some type of screening. But there really was nothing that was, that was technically appropriate, that gave her any guidance. Uh, and because of the necessity, she went and called her HVAC installer, and they put in the, um, the condenser, which is underneath an obscured, uh, by the deck, uh,

13:03 and went up the only side of the house where they could do it. Uh, and, uh, some, I believe some two years later, may have been two or three years later, she received notice, uh, that, uh, what she had done was, uh, well, number one, she hadn’t been before the board because they weren’t convened during that time, but was in contravention of their, uh, the way they interpreted, uh, their charge in terms of enforcing, uh, what could be done to the exterior of an older home. Um, I have a lot of additional information, uh, to provide to you that wasn’t presented in the package, which I’ll be going through with you, depending on how much time you’re prepared to allow me to speak. I know Ms. Thompson would like very much to, to sort

13:48 of relate her personal, uh, experience. Um, and then we’ll get into, into the, into the law, uh, because clearly your charge is defined by a set of standards as well, which is the arbitrariness of the capriciousness of the whimsical ness, or the untenable of the law itself, and how it can be enforced. And I’ll be glad to expound on that later. But if, if you would just introduce yourself and give a little background. You already know my name, Sally Thompson. I’ve lived in Marblehead for 39 years, raise both of my daughters here. And I’ve lived in Old Town for 23 years. This is my second property in Old Town. Um, as Ken said, when I was

14:35 rebuilding a deck on Waldron Street, it was very clear that you had to go to olden historic. So I did. It was approved. That’s fine. Um, on this 34 front street house, when the gutters were failing, the wooden gutters pouring water into my bedroom window, um, went to old and historic. They said, you need to do copper gutters. I did copper gutters. So, um, you know, I, I knew certain things that you had to go for, but in 2020, I wasn’t. In June, they were closed. There was nothing, no information that I could gather. I wasn’t even really certain be,

15:21 because there are so many conduits in town. You have the conduits that, you know, bring the water down. There are conduits that take electrical cords on the outside. There are conduits that do, um, Xfinity and Comcast. Um, and I walked around Old Town, and within three blocks of my house, there were three examples of exterior conduits that you can tell by the shape of that conduit that it’s probably a line set and it had the same shape. And whatever that, uh, that mine does, I painted mine the same as the house color, which the other houses had done also. So I, you know, at that point, I thought it was okay.

16:11 I had to put them in, in June of 2020. Um, I had been going back and forth the, the previous summers, uh, taking care of my, uh, aging father who was out of town. So, uh, this was a summer that my daughter was going to be there. I was going to be there full-time. That house being right on the street and really kind of sandwiched in, uh, it can go to 90 degrees so quickly, and it doesn’t dissipate. Um, window air conditioners, uh, the bedroom, the master bedroom is very small. The window is about three feet from the bed. I have tinnitus. I cannot stand, you know, that kind

16:57 of noise will keep me awake all the time. So I tried the, um, the things, the cooler things that have, they go into the window, um, and that the tube itself heated up so much that it actually made the room warmer rather than cooling it. So I had tried other things. I was very familiar with these Mitsubishi split units because I had used them, uh, in Colorado. So, you know, I, I went to that. There, there was, because of the configuration and some of the, it’s just two floors in order to get full maximum use out of it, the only place

17:43 they could go is in the southern end of the house, which happens to be the new addition that somebody put on probably 20, 25 years ago. I’ve only owned this house for nine years. So, um, we put them on there and then put the exterior line sets in the conduit that they require. Um, I thought everything was fine. Didn’t know there was a problem until I received the letter in August of 22. And the committee and myself and the contractor, uh, spent numerous meetings trying to come up with other ideas, you know, different places

18:30 it doesn’t work on, on that house. It, it’s a private way, public way on all three sides. Um, so in the end, I was ordered to bring them inside by March 19th of 24. That will be an expense of anywhere from 15 to $20,000 to do that. Um, in your packet, you have an estimate from 1 28 Plumbing and what you have, you can’t move the, the line sets on the inside. You have to replace them, so you have a cost for that. And then to bring them in my house, they have to come in

19:17 and go down into the basement, which means you have to rework the heating system on both levels. And then when you put it in the basement, there are two parts to these exterior, uh, conduits. One of them is a drain. It drips from the condensation that it’s taking out of the room. So that, and then you have the electrical lines, uh, that if you’re going to take it through the basement and bring it out the back door, um, you have to have a pump because the front of the house to the back of the house goes up. So in order to get that water to go up, you have to pump it up.

20:02 It’s very expensive. It makes it a financially prohibitive thing to do. Um, so this is where we are right now. Um, I feel that the decision, because of the, of the line sets and conduits that I still see that I saw three years ago on houses and use them to inform my decision, they’re still on those houses. So it makes me feel like this has been a very arbitrary capricious decision. The second part to it is that, um, and I’m going to, uh, I talked

20:50 to Mark Adams of the Marblehead Sustainable Committee, and he was very helpful in telling me about, um, the fact that there is legislation that has been presented to representative Jenny Armini and Senator Brendan Creighton to change the Massachusetts state law. And what they are, uh, doing is changing the direction to the historic districts so that they will be more friendly, both monetarily, everything else in addressing solar panels and tiles, heat pumps like this system, and, um, uh, double paned windows.

21:38 And also, in talking with Mark, what he said is that there’s a plethora of towns in the Commonwealth that already allow these exterior line set conduits on in their historic district. Um, Andover conquered Lexington, Newburyport Salem, and he said, those are just a few of the many towns that already are, um, allowing these to be on the exterior of historic buildings. So, and this kind of a decision also puts us out of step with what the town of Marblehead and the select board voted in 2018,

22:25 to have our town be net zero by 2040. And without having these, uh, heat pumps and systems available to be put in at a reasonable costs, meaning you don’t have to bury it there, are there no wall spaces to bury it inside in these houses. So you have to bring them in, do all sorts of carpentry, um, and everything else to enclose them within your own home, um, if that’s what they demand. But what our town wants is these to be exterior so that they are, um, more user-friendly for people, uh, not as much of a cost.

23:12 So with those ideas and different ways to look at it, I really feel that we need to have a paradigm shift and allow these on the exterior. Um, and I, I strongly believe that that decision should be changed. I was gonna add, if I might, um, we did a little research and, um, found that, uh, back in 2018 when the town meeting, uh, voted, uh, to achieve net zero, that the select board at that time, uh, created what’s, I, I’m not sure if this committee still exists, the Green Marvel Head Committee, uh,

23:59 which published a roadmap to this net zero. And it indicated that within the roadmap, it states the following quote, allow changes to historic buildings that reduce greenhouse gas emissions. So even back in 2018, which was prior to the lines that being put in, uh, by Ms. Thompson, the town was aware, and their Green Marblehead committee was aware that this is something that needed to be addressed. And interestingly enough, they, they even identified historic buildings as something that needed to be identified. Um, the only other town that I have found that, that you missed was Dedham. Oh, you’re right. And, and as far as we could tell, uh, all of the towns that had historic, uh, committees, uh, have endorsed the appropriateness of exterior line sets.

24:47 Now, the question then comes up is, what authority does the board have to grant this relief? Um, it’s all under chapter 2 33, under the old historic Marblehead District Commission rules and regulations, specifically section 2 3 3 dash three C, which states, um, owing to conditions, especially affecting the building or structure involved. So it’s unit specific, but not affecting the historical district. Generally failure to issue a certificate, Probus will involve a substantial hardship, financial, or otherwise to the applicant. I think the applicant has given you sufficient information for which to understand the significance

25:32 of both the financial as well as the other hardship, which is, uh, the hardship to her and her daughter, uh, physically. And that goes on to say, and such certificates may be issued without substantial detriment to the public welfare. And without substantial derogation from the intent and the purpose of the act, uh, we see that the word substantial, it doesn’t say, it says substantial detriment to the public welfare, and without substantial derogation from the intent of the purpose of the law. It also goes on to indicate in section E, uh, the reasons for such determination may be made upon the recommendation of the appellant respecting appropriateness of design arrangement. Texture materials are rather relevant factors. Uh, every effort has been made to, to meet that criteria.

26:20 Um, that in conjunction with the fact that mini splits are, are, are far more, uh, user-friendly in terms of the environment. Um, they, they use far less fossil fuels. And if anyone is trying to achieve net zero, the amount of electricity that is necessary to run these is significantly less. Uh, that coupled with the fact that for some reason we’re not sure, uh, we see these line sets, uh, on other homes, uh, in the historic district. Um, I, the, for all we know, the historical commission of the old historic Commission has identified those and has taken some action, but we haven’t seen it. Uh, the other thing that’s, that’s of particular interest and can candidly I don’t quite understand, is that there’s no thing that prevents you from

27:06 putting exterior.

27:10 If I can, I just, I was gonna approach, but I guess I’m already here. Uh, you know, that’s a picture we just took and, and that, that air conditioning unit is, is affixed to the house and it sticks out. What you’ll also see right next to it, uh, is a line set with horizontal lines that, that go and, and for some reason, they, there’s a, they distinguish in the most recent revision of the Historical Commission guidelines as it relates to HVAC and mechanical systems, of which I will gladly give you a copy as well. Uh, oh, shoot. I’m sorry. Um, thank you. That was, that was, that was revised in March of 2023.

27:58 This year, yeah, this year. Uh, and it was the first time that we ever saw anyone making any attempt to try to codify by way of a guideline. It’s not a warrant article. Uh, the only warrant article is the second page, which is the page that, that is part of your bylaws. Uh, and it’s incorporated actually in the zoning bylaw, which talks about the exterior conventions and trying to screen them. Um, later on when they did, when the Historical commission or the Olden Historical Commission made a determination with regard to line sets, they incorporated that. And we found that in the March, 2023 revision, as I said, this was done well before that this was done without the, the, the help or the guidance of the old historic because of covid. They just weren’t, weren’t available.

28:45 Um, we did what we thought was right. Uh, we see this existing on other homes. Uh, the cost to retrofit, this is astronomical. Um, the, the savings in, in terms of electrical savings and impact upon the environment is clearly defined. And that’s why not only is there promo promotion of, um, of mini splits, but there’s a tax rebate that’s given to communities that endorse the use of mini splits. Um, so the, the intent is there. The good faith is there. We’ve been before old and historic in the past, and we would’ve been there, but for the fact they weren’t there to entertain our need when we needed them. Um, you know, we’re here before you because you are a board that has the opportunity within your discretion

29:32 as identified in, in the bylaw. Uh, if you find that, um, owing to conditions, especially affecting the building, not affecting the historical district, generally failure to issue a certificate will involve the hardship. And we’re, we’re suggesting to you that hardship is real, and we’re suggesting to you that we would ask the board’s indulgence. Um, and, and in no way is this impugning the, the job and the charge of the hold, hold and historic commission. It, it, it’s just that, that things change. Times change. And, and, and, you know, we have to be able to be as concerned about the population that we serve as the buildings that they live in. And, um, to suggest that if you live in the old district

30:17 or the gingerbread Hill district, you, you cannot have lines that you can’t have mini splits. It, it is just putting a, a burden, not so much on the aesthetics of the house, but on their, on, on them physically. Because we live in a society where, where it’s, as we get older, we become intolerant to hot weather, and we become intolerant to, to living in, in non air conditioned buildings. And the last, and this is somewhat anecdotal, ‘cause I did know this before, I did a little checking, uh, close to 95% of all homes in the United States now, air conditioned. Um, it’s pretty unbelievable because when I grew up, we didn’t have air conditioning. Uh, we just opened the window. Um, I, I don’t know, maybe we were tougher back then, but that’s, that’s, that was the extent of it. But, but society has changed.

31:02 Um, the, these, these particular air conditioning units have changed. And the only thing that makes this problematic as I understand it, is that exterior line mindset being this.

31:19 And, and as far as we can tell, we cannot distinguish between an electrical line set a gutter, which goes up and down, which allows water to flow, or a conduit, which includes a copper tubing inside to bring the coolant up to the air handler within the house itself. And that’s all it’s doing. Um, it’s a pipe in the exterior. Um, it’s not even in houses that can accommodate putting in central air, but it’s not because they’re not nearly as efficient as these new mini splits. Um, we’re here to answer any questions. I know, obviously, the, the board is here to explain their rationale,

32:04 and we’d be glad to respond to any questions or issues that they raise. Thank you for your time. Well, thank you very much. I forgot. Yes, please go right ahead. To, um, mention also, and this is information from Mark Adams, which was so helpful. He said that, um, the select board created a green Marblehead committee, which has published a roadmap to net zero. I said that I, I know. But that last slide, within the roadmap, it states the following action allow changes to historic buildings that reduce greenhouse gas emissions. And I think you have this picture in your packet. Mm-Hmm. But yours hopefully is in color, not black and white, but this is my street.

32:50 This is my house. Mm-Hmm. There are different kinds of conduits all over the place. They’re on an angle, they make turns. So I’m not alone

33:05 On the street. Well, I guess I have one last, one last thought. Please Go ahead. Sure. As well, you know, in, in the past when they had window air conditioners, before they had these mini splits, they’re very noisy, you know, and you talk about trying to be, you know, neighbor friendly. And they, they, they, they, they turn out a lot of noise. These things are so quiet, and it’s not so much the issue of, of the noise pollution, that that generates the issue. It’s, it’s the fact that it, it, in fact, delegates because no one, when they first grew the rules and regulations contemplated line sets on mini splits because it’s new. And, uh, it wasn’t codified as far as we could tell,

33:52 until March of 23, when they realized that there’s something that, that hadn’t yet been addressed. Um, and we’re asking that the, we can’t change the guideline, but at least in the future, people will have a guideline in which, in order to make a determination as to what they think they can or cannot do, it’s there, but it wasn’t there when we first made that, uh, that determination and that decision. And once again, thank you for your Time. Okay. Thank you very much. I’m, I’m gonna leave the board. Feel free to ask questions of both parties as we go along. Okay. So, uh, with that, uh, do we have any, any questions from the board? Any follow up questions after this presentation?

34:36 Do you have any? Not this time. Not this time. I wanna hear the other side before I start asking. Okay, that’s fine. I just, a quick question, just in regards to the communication piece. I mean, you know, our, uh, our purview, and this is pretty limited, but I wanted to ask you specifically, you know, where you’re talking about communication, and you said that you had reached out can, and you were not able to reach anyone. Um, but you also mentioned, you know, you had been before the board for other things, Other things, but they, the board was closed, it was covid, even on their website, it said they were closed, their offices were closed due to Covid. And this was June. It was right. When did we declare it an emergency? March. Mm-Hmm, I think March 12th or 14th of 2020.

35:21 And everybody was closing. So there was not any, there weren’t the lines of communication were not available. Had you reached out, like, to the select board or anyone else? Like via email, like other means Of no communication? I, I didn’t know that I had to, so, okay. Appreciate that. Yeah. That’s Questions. No, they’re okay. No, I, I think very thorough. Thank you very much for your presentation. Thank you. Appreciate it. We’d be permitted to, to respond if there’s something that we, um, I think, uh, it has to go through you and that’s why I’m asking. Yeah. That it, uh, I think we can,

36:06 I’m not sure whether in this format, but We’ll, we can, I think we can, we can allow it. Thank you for sure. Alright. Uh, yes, if you’d, if you’d go through the chair, that would be great. Okay. Uh, we’d now like to allow the OH, uh, dc uh, Charles, if you’d like to come up with whomever you like. And, uh, please, uh, let us know what went into your decision and, and how you’d I Will. Good evening, uh, chair and select board members. Um, my name is Charles Bert. I’m the current chair of the old Historic District Mission. And, uh, the select board is no familiar with their role in this matter. Um, so that others attending may be as well. I just ask for your indulgence and moment as I offer a quick explanation

36:53 of the question for you. Under bylaw chapter one, 10 dash three, OHTC shall, and I’m paraphrasing, have the power to pass upon the appropriateness of the exterior architectural features of buildings or other structures. For this appeal, the select board is being asked to side based on the evidence, if the OHDC was arbitrary or capricious in its actions and decisions concerning the case, put it another way. Does the commission’s handling a decision about the violation at 34 Front Street differ substantively from prior OHDC decisions on similar issues brought before it? In other cases, in order to do this, the select board needs to know something about one OHD standard practices when it comes to violations.

37:39 Two, some precedent facts demonstrating these practices. And three, finally, the details of how this case conforms to those practices. So to summarize, you all are here considering the OHD process, not whether something is historically appropriate or not. Um, a quick word about observations. The commission members were all me, um, residents of the district with one except who lives outside the district and commission members observe the activities in the districts as we go about our daily lives, but we do not search for them or police the neighborhoods exhaustively. And consequently, a violation can remain undiscovered for some time. And when a violation is discovered, a three-step process is begun. First, an activity notice is mailed,

38:25 advising the property owner of the unapproved change, that unapproved changes have been observed, and there may be justification for them. But the owner needs to appear before OHDC to explain them and resolve the issue. Within 45 days, if no response, a violation notice is mailed, advising them that OHDC has determined the issue is a violation. The building department has been notified and they need to appear before OHDC to explain and resolve the issue. Within 30 days, if still no response, an enforcement notice is mailed, advising them that OHCC has requested the building department initiate fines. Town Council pursue legal action effective immediately. So there is a stepping stepped process to violations.

39:13 How the commission handles these. Now, in almost all cases, owners respond to activity notice and resolve the issues quickly and to the mutual satisfaction of themselves and the commission, as is sometimes the case, honest mistakes can be made and the commission simply seeks to remedy the situation without prejudice and to the OHDC standards, acknowledging that, and in the spirit of co cooperation commission whenever possible, will search for elements of compromise while still achieving historical appropriateness goals. However, HVAC condensers and their, uh, line sets are modern equipment and their appearance cannot be judged to be historically appropriate. They’re permanently installed and

39:58 therefore qualify as structures as defined by the bylaw and where visible from the public way the OHCC has purview over their installation. They also incidentally require HVAC and electrical permits from the building department and the commission’s pursuing HVAC violations that have identified to it throughout the districts, uh, and has updated their published guidelines. As mentioned, uh, earlier to broadcast guidance on the issue, we currently have three orders of remediation concerning HVAC in which the owners are working with a commission to craft changes needed to receive OHDC relief from the violation status. The commission has successfully resolved 25 separate HVAC violations since 2018.

40:44 12 of these dealt specifically with line sets and only one H-V-S-H-V-A-C violation has been appealed. The OHDC decision was upheld by the Select Board and on appeal, that decision was upheld by the State Supreme Court.

41:03 So turning to 34 Front Street, this is a case of not going through the proper steps to receive approval before conducting the work. In response to the, uh, commission’s August, 2022 activity notice, the owner of 34 Front Street appear before the commission in September of 2022. Commission sought to learn the factors and chain of events that led to the failure to obtain OHDC approval. The commission did take exception to the owner’s testimony that OHDC was closed during covid. In fact, the commission began meeting virtually after the first and only cancellation in March of 2020. So it’s demonstrably false that we were closed during covid. We have been holding meetings, we have minutes to support that.

41:49 Um, but at this point, I think it’s important to mention that the commission did not see any evidence of ill intent on the owner’s part. Um, but as with all violations, commission members then have to ask themselves a very simple question. Had this been a duly submitted application, would they issue a certificate of appropriateness for the work? And the answer is unanimously no. In three subsequent meetings with the owner or a representative, thereof, the commission reiterated their objections to the visible line sets and asked the owner to consult an HVAC contractor about moving them to the back of the house. Based on the owner’s testimony at the final hearing on September 19th, 2023, it did not appear to the commission

42:35 as if any efforts were made to do this. The commission left with no alternative, voted five to zero in favor of issuing an order of remediation. Um, turning to the appeal letter, there are a couple points that I’d just like to make.

42:53 We’ve stated that OHCC did not close during covid. Um, the allegation about throwing pictures is a mischaracter characterization of the commission returning photos across this very large table to, um, to the owner. Uh, and from the outset, the owner made it, uh, excuse me, the commission made it clear that the line sets needed to move the HVAC condenser around the back of the house is not at issue here. It’s the line sets. So the commission should not be criticized for being unwelcoming of contractor’s suggestions to jacket or encase these line sets. And I find it a bit ironic, the use of the word unwelcoming when you look at the record,

43:39 and that the commission invested a significant amount of time over four separate hearings, not withstanding three separate requests for continuance from the applicant with no pushback or request for merit from the owner. Um, I think that that record of meetings and time invested demonstrates the commission’s willingness to try and work the, with the owner work through the issue and shows, uh, a really a very generous, uh, forbearance over a violation. This is not an application of something I’d like to do. It’s something that I just went ahead and did without, um, the proper approvals. Uh, as I mentioned, no HVAC, uh, or sorry, HVAC

44:24 and electrical permits are required. None were pulled, none were, um, received from the billing department. So the billing department has their own issue on this case as well. Um, the appeal letter also goes to great lengths and testimony before talking about health issues, financial issues, sustainability, energy conservation issues. And, um, when I’m not sitting in my role on or serving on OHDC, I share those same concerns and same limitations as the rest of the community members. But when I am sitting on, uh, we’re performing OHDC, or excuse me, when the commission is performing OHDC duties, those factors are not ones that the commission can consider

45:10 in our objective execution of what is historically appropriate or not. And to give you an analogy, someone who says, I filled in the wetlands in my backyard, ‘cause some mosquitoes are hazardous to my health. And then when caught says, I can’t afford to restore them, should not force the town’s hand to say, well, that’s just something that we all have to accept and we’ll live with that condition. So we are very careful not to, um, factor those things. Who can afford to do something, who can’t afford to do something? That’s not our job. Our job is to look strictly at what is or isn’t historically appropriate. Um, and I think that, uh, the record shows

45:56 that we’ve been very consistent. We pursue all violations equally. We’re pursuing all the violations of line sets or, uh, that are visible from the public way. We have a log of that, uh, we have a number five or so that are currently in violation. We’ve got five that we’re working with. We have three orders of remediation that are out. So I, there is a ample record of how the commission consistently pursues these violations. If the owner went out, looked around the neighborhood and saw a whole bunch of line sets and assumed that, well, since they’re there, then it must be okay, that’s their mistake. That’s not your mistake. That’s not the town’s fault or the commission’s failing. Um, and I think that the town, the OHTC

46:43 and by association, the select board and the town, have shown a willingness to enforce the rules and hold those who break them accountable as evidenced by pursuing things all the way up to State Superior Court. So with that, I thank you for your time. Happy to answer any questions. Thank, I know it was a lot of information. Yeah, Yeah. No, much appreciated. Thank you. Any, uh, any questions from the board?

47:09 I think the one, it might be for Mr. Thatcher, um, but if a building permit was needed for this, which would’ve been pulled either by the owner or the person installing it, would the building permit be conditioned upon the O HDCs approval?

47:29 Could I answer that for you? Yeah. Um, so the, I didn’t want to take up too much time, but the OHDC application process starts with someone either downloading the application online or going to the engineering building and getting an application. The application on the front page specifically says you have to go to the building department to review your scope of work with the building inspector or a building official. Those people, that department is best positioned to tell you whether you might need additional permits such as HVC or electrical, or you have to go to con com or you need to go to zoning. So we specifically send everyone there at that point, building department official would look at this and say, I see you’re proposing something on the exterior of your house.

48:14 You’re going to need to go to den historic and get approval for that. That’s where the, we catch that. Now, as mentioned, the commission has since, uh, because things like this happen. Um, and as I said, it’s, I think it’s an honest mistake. We’re we’re not trying to punish anyone here. We’re just trying to apply the law equally to everybody. Um, the, uh,

48:41 the building department would advise, you know, what, what they need to do. Um, and then if they come before us, we had an opportunity to talk about what, you know, would be appropriate or wouldn’t be appropriate, then we could have crafted this so that, um, you know, the line sets wouldn’t have gone there in the first place. Oh, sorry. The, the point I was gonna make is the, the guidance we added, uh, amended our guidelines or added to the guidelines just because we’re trying to put out as much information, you know, be as, as clear and transparent with things as possible. So where we see that there was lack of clarity, um, we’re trying to, to help in that respect. But, uh, ultimately for, and this applies to all of us. We wanna do something, it’s our responsibility

49:27 to go find out what approvals we have to want to dig up, you know, in the street. I gotta go talk to Dig Safe, that sort of thing. Okay. Sorry, long answer for your question. Thank you. Any thanks For answering that question for me, by the way.

49:45 Okay. Are there any other questions, uh, before I invite, uh, each party to make a, a closing statement if necessary before we close the public hearing? Uh, any other the chair? Yes, please go right ahead. Um, just Point of information and you clarified that, uh, you pivoted pretty quickly to zoom meetings and then you were still executing those hearings, right? Is that, I’m sorry,

50:15 there, we, I just asked for, hopefully that’s working those online. That’s for the tv. That’s for the TV. I know. But if I feel like, if you can’t hear me, maybe they can’t. I’m not usually quiet. So that’s been a, been an interesting day. Um, so just point of information, you, uh, had a point that you said you had p you, you know, you were board in 2020, had pivoted pretty quickly to online hearings, and then you were conducting those hearings Yeah. Through the online venue. We canceled one in person meeting. Um, we meet twice a month. First and third week of every month. Yeah. Um, I don’t recall what, I think it was the second meeting for the month. Um, and then we picked resumed with virtual meetings, um, thanks to the assistance of town the very next month.

51:00 Yes. And you stated that your minutes reflect that, Correct? Correct. I mean, it just, it’s like the building department things couldn’t stop ‘cause people were correct in the middle of things or they gotta get things going. I’ve gotta hole my roof. So we, we knew we had to act quickly. Okay. Thank you sir. It’s my understanding the municipal building reopened June 15th or thereabouts. So I, it was before my time, but closed when the emergency was declared, but opened and staff in June. Yeah. And some staff were, were available during e even during that time. So. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for the clarification. Sure. It was a confusing time, that’s for sure. But you, but you kept, kept going. We all did as best we could, I think. Yeah. Thank you. Um, okay.

51:46 Uh, I would like to ask either of the parties, if you have any questions, closing statements that you’d like to, I think we might Wanna respond to. I think it’s important to understand. Okay. You go. Yeah, yeah. Please come. Yeah, if you can Welcome. No, No, you can stay here with me. Yep. It’s alright. We we’re both trying to do our jobs. I understand that as well. You know, each piece of property is, is unique and, um, and I understand that the, the district itself is unique because it’s old, but, but when the issue is of where one can place the line set, it would, it’s predicated upon where the HVAC installer indicated it could go. And we, and from what I understand, and you know, once again, this is what I’m advised, uh,

52:33 it was, it was placed there because number one, it uh, it allowed them to put the condenser under the deck so it wouldn’t be exposed so that that wouldn’t be seen. And the other reason was because the area where it is not visible from a public way is very close to an, to an existing building, which I believe is that she indicated was like 12 inches away. So, you know, we, we understand the charge o of, of of old historic. And, and in no way did I wish to or suggest to my clients, you wish to besmirch the good work they do. But, but there are times where, and may be it oversight, be it misunderstanding, be it a failure to clearly codify the rules, which came later into effect in 23 to ensure that it not happen again.

53:19 Which is a good idea. But I still don’t understand the significance of how you distinguish line sets, um, line sets for electricity and water are, in this case coolant to go up to these condensers. But that’s not my, that’s not my responsibility. That’s something which, which this board makes that and distinguishes those. But that’s part of what we consider to be, and I believe what the rules of the town when they were incorporated seemed to wanna suggest could be construed as arbitrary. Um, because I, we have pictures that show that there are electric lines going up that are much thicker than the line set of the coolant that that charges, uh, the refrigerant that goes to these, these,

54:05 these, uh, air handlers. It’s not huge. Uh, we decided that we, if we could paint them, uh, if we could box them, if you, you know, just by, by putting, you know, similar type of clabbered, if it’s clabbered or whatever the siding is, uh, to make them invisible. Um, and that was apparently, and once again, I wasn’t at these hearings suggested, um, the only suggestion that we had, as I understand, and it’s based upon my reading of, of the letter of remediation, is they wanted them to take them out and install ‘em in, in the interior of the building. Um, is it possible? Yeah, I, I suspect you can probably do anything if you’re prepared to expend the funds necessary. The impact upon the interior of the house is a different issue.

54:52 But I’m sure for a price and a price of $18,000, you know, was a suggested price that it could be done. Um, it makes the use of mini splits virtually impossible if we have to incorporate that line set within the interior of the house in order to meet the needs of old and historic. It just, they, it’s impossible to use them. They just, you know, these are, these were designed primarily because they were less expensive. They were less disruptive to homes and they could achieve air conditioning without putting these outside window units, which, which were terribly visible, extremely noisy, and not terribly efficient. Uh, because these are, um, as I said, and it’s, it’s really not my role to, to tell the select board what the intent of town meeting was when they decided that they want

55:39 to go net zero and other towns deciding whether it was appropriate to exempt line sets. Uh, because it, it improves the, the ability to, uh, to control, uh, you know, fossil fuels and carbon dioxide emissions. But they have, for some reason, marble has elected otherwise. And that’s their prerogative. I can’t, nor do I wish to suggest they change. But I do think that that the issue of allowing of some sorts of line sets and not others, and not at least allowing us to try to disguise them in some way that makes them less visible, uh, is, is something which I think the historical commission, not historical commission, the old and historic district commission not necessarily exceeded their authority,

56:25 but they had the ability to try to understand and try to accommodate the needs of somebody who had not only, uh, fiscal obligations, but but medical ones as well. And, and we were asking, and maybe it wasn’t done ‘cause I wasn’t present, and, and maybe it wasn’t done in a way that, that, uh, that created a, a feeling of, of, of, of commonness between the applicant and, and the commission. Uh, and maybe there are people like me that try to smooth things over to make things work a little bit easier, um, because people sort of dig their heels in. And I’m, I’m hoping because if Ford has that authority to try to distinguish each piece of property, each financial need, each medical concern, and make a determination, which will,

57:12 will not only meet the criteria of the applicant, but the commission as well. And I suspect if we could, ‘cause we tried to paint them in the same color, and if there’s any suggestion that could be made to try to box them in, like you box in, you know, you box in gutters or even putting the, the line set inside of a copper tubing, so it looks like a gutter or a, or a downspout might have met that criteria, but it, apparently it didn’t. So we find ourselves with no alternative, uh, to come before this board. Um, and we, and we’re doing it with sort of hat in hand, you know, we’re not telling you what you should do, we’re telling you what you can do and we’re asking you that you do it. Thank you. I just wanted, thank you Mr. Wanted to clarify, um,

58:00 what Charles had said. I responded immediately within the 30 days, the written time period because I was shocked. And, uh, I also, when I installed it was told that my electrical system, whatever’s in the basement, um, was fine. That it didn’t need any upgrading or any changes. Um, and also within this last year, there were some continuances. I had surgery in the middle, not anything I could control. Um, and I had my contract breaks Greg’s reader come twice to meetings to try and make presentations, uh, create ideas, different thinking.

58:45 I also paid him several times to come to my house to try and figure out other alternatives. So it is not that that wasn’t pursued At all, and it wasn’t done in, in any way to be offensive to the, the charge and the responsibility of old and historic. Understood. Understood. Thank you. Can I ask quick, quick question. You said the compressor or the condenser is under the deck? Yes. Where’s the Deck? The, when you look at the house, it’s, there’s a back door. I think we have a picture now. And the back door, um, has a place underneath it and they put it under, it’s behind the house. Yes. They put it there so that they could take the lines into not the drain, but the lines into the basement and bring them up and attach them there.

59:33 And it’s one of the few places on the house where nobody can see it because my neighbor has a fence. So my, my question on that, having gone down there today, so in, so this is a better picture, but the same picture, I’m not a contractor, not anything. Can’t they go through the, uh, attic? Excuse Me, sir. Inside, sir, if I can interrupt. This is not Oh, okay. Appropriate. All right. Um, well, I’m just Respectfully, sir, I got you. No, fair, fair enough. I think, Uh, Charles, I I sustained that. I sustained that point. I mean, we should, uh, gotcha. I, I think we’ll make that clear. I think on our deliberation, What’s important I understand is that I’ve stated why factors

1:00:19 of cost and health Mm-Hmm. Should not be considered. And we see this all the time. And again, when I’m, when we’re not sitting in or performing our duties in OHCC, we all have the same, you know, considerations in our personal lives of why we choose to do things or not do things. But to consider cost and to consider health would be a gross injustice to being objective. Who are, who are we to decide whether you can or can’t afford to do the right thing? Who are we to decide whether health issue rises to the level of, yeah, you have to have air conditioning. That is not appropriate for us at all. And I think it’s very inappropriate to suggest that that’s the rationale for why i i something that, excuse me.

1:01:04 I’ll just, okay. I’m trying to say for why something that was done misguided mistakenly, as it is an honest mistake should be accepted by the town. Why the town, and why the OHTC should forfeit their, you know, their purview and their goals for that. I just have one quick, um, oh, I thought you were Finished. Yeah, I just, oh, I’m sorry. I’m sort of in that same vein. The conservation, the energy conservation, sustainability, all the rest of it, the bylaws specific, uh, names, specific elements that are excluded from O HT C purview, weather, veins, um, radio antennas, if anyone had one of those, that sort of thing. So the writers of the bylaw did consider very specific elements, um, that might appear

1:01:53 or do appear on the exterior of a house. Now, obviously, HVAC line sets were not, you know, in existence back then. Electrical conduits were, they were specifically not mentioned because that’s a utility. And Marblehead power light and power has purview over that. OHCC doesn’t have any purview. So the meter has to go where the electrical inspector says it has to go. HVAC is not a utility, it’s like a satellite dish or some other amenity that you add to your house as much as one might argue that I have to have air conditioning in order to make the house livable, it’s not the same thing. And so if the town, and by the town, I mean the people, the community, the inhabitants feel so strongly about adopting

1:02:42 HV or allowing for permitting, HVC line sets, dual pane windows, all these solar panels. It’s up to the town through the voting process to amend the laws. And this commission will be more than happy to comply with that. I just, one, one final comment. Um, I think the restraints that, um, the, the board chair has are, are, are self, um, self-determined restraints, because I, I’m reading, I’m reading from chapter 2 33, which are the rules and regulations of old and historic Marblehead District Commission. And it gives them that authority. It’s an owing to conditions, especially affecting the building or structure involved,

1:03:27 but not affecting the historical district. Generally, failure to issue a certificate of appropriateness will involve a substantial hardship, financial or otherwise to the applicant. So it’s applicant driven. This isn’t an applicant though, sir. This is someone who’s in violation. Well, she’s only a, It’s not an ask for it. Well, I didn’t interrupt. I tried not to. Please go ahead. No, no, I’m, I tried not. Go ahead, please. To the chair. She would’ve, she, she would have been an applicant had she applied on time. There’s no question that, that her application came in after the fact, but she’s still an applicant now, and we’re still applying as if we were applying then. And clearly the board has discretion. The board self, self-reliance on his failure

1:04:13 to have discretion is misguided. If it says, and it says very clearly that they have it with, they have with, uh, financial or otherwise to the applicant, it’s applicant driven. And she does. She does. And and unless you dispute the fact that, that, that, that her daughter had brain cancer or brain surgery, or it was too hard, or the house is what it is, or it’s gonna cost them $18,000, that’s real and it’s real to the applicant. And it’s something that, for whatever reason, wishes to be discarded because there is a determination made that’s inappropriate. Regardless if they don’t want to do it, they said they didn’t. But it allows this board to overrule it because of the arbitrariness of their failure to identify

1:04:59 the unique characteristics of the applicant, which are real and have not yet been disputed. And it goes on finally to say, without substantial detriments to the public welfare, and without substantial these words, substantial, their derogation from the intent and purpose of the act. There has never been a showing of any hardship, any hardship whatsoever to the public welfare or derogation from the intent of the purpose of the act. It offends this gentleman. He doesn’t like it, and that’s his prerogative. But it doesn’t mean that the applicant’s uniqueness, financial hardship, or the property itself aren’t taken into consideration. And it’s that arbitrariness that I think gives this board the opportunity and,

1:05:45 and the ability to, to vote in favor of a, of either denying, uh, the, the action taken, which is that they remediate and put it in, or allowing her to maintain what she has and, and ordering that they, they provide a certificate of appropriateness. That’s what, that’s what your, these rules say. That’s what these rules are governed by town meeting who voted them in and not the guideline that was established some three years later as it relates to line sets, which didn’t exist or weren’t even contemplated. And, and last but not least, you know, the thing with, with, with the electrical lines, it’s, it’s, it’s marblehead power. That’s true. It’s their lines. They, they have to put ‘em in.

1:06:31 They do, but they don’t look any different. And the other is the issue with regard to, I didn’t, wasn’t gonna bring it up with satellite television discs because they similarly, you know, have wires coming down all over the place. And that’s governed by the Telecommunications Act of 1999. Granted, it’s not their issue either, but you know, something, it doesn’t mean you can’t do it, and it doesn’t mean you can’t act fairly, it doesn’t mean, and I don’t mean if you don’t, that you’re not, it just means that you have the authority to try to understand and expand beyond the charge that this board feels that it has. Well, and also to Move in the direction of what the net zero town it’s trying to, what they’re trying to achieve.

1:07:17 Thank you. Thank you very much for Your time. No, thank you, Mr. Thank you. Mr. You know, something, I, I realize that I’m probably taking up Well, more than No, no, It’s, it’s, it’s, uh, we’re, we’re, we’re here here to hear. Thank you very much. You’re, you’re thank very much. I apologize for interruption. I think that’s No, that’s okay. Please. Yeah. I know we’re Notes. Um, Okay. Mission, There was no failure to provide clear clarity on what the process is. There was no failure to provide guidance on how to proceed with altering things on the exterior of your house. We, We have a, we have document documentation. We, We didn’t do it on time. We’re not disputing that. Okay. Understood. Thank you. Okay. Do I stay here or do I, Uh, you know, well, if you do,

1:08:03 you, I I have two questions. One, if you’re finished with your closing statements, if you could, if, if that’s the case, I’m then going to ask the board whether they feel that there’s enough information to close the hearing And to, and to go ahead and make a, a determination and have a discussion. I think my only closing statement, mm-hmm. Would just be that this is a case, a very simple case. There is a failure, an honest mistake to follow the approval process. And it’s obviously resulted in a situation where the mission in trying to execute their, uh, duties, uh, has rendered a decision which the, um, homeowner feels agreed. And yet issues of energy conservation and the larger, you know, goals of the town, uh,

1:08:49 and other factors that are not relevant to stark appropriateness, should not be used to allow a violation to, to stand. Um, because if it does, then it’s an open season of I’m just gonna go ahead and do it, and then I’ll come before you and beg for forgiveness, saying, I can’t afford to take the addition off my house. I can’t afford to return all those solar panels. I can’t afford to rip all the brand new dual pane windows outta my 18 hundreds historic house and put back in the old windows. The old ones are in the dump. Thank you. I just have one last thought because it, it, it, it, it does follow the clarity. Were there. If the 2023 rule dealing with, with line sets from mini splits existed in

1:09:37 2020, we wouldn’t be here. But I’m not disagreeing with the fact that we didn’t get the application in timely. Um, there is a suggestion that, uh, effort were made, but it wasn’t done. Uh, there’s no question that the work was done without a certificate of appropriateness. But I think the penalty for failure to do that is far greater. And the board can look beyond that. And we apologize if an apology is appropriate, if, because we don’t wish to, uh, to be flagrant, and we really don’t. Um, the, the one thing I, I couldn’t disagree with him. He said it was anonymous, and it was, it was, and you know why? Because if you had gone before the old and historic for other things, why would you have aviated going before them for this?

1:10:23 And it’s because she just didn’t know. And she, and she made a call, it wasn’t answered. And she called the HVC guy and he installed it for her. Um, to go backwards is, is, is just financially impossible. Um, and we don’t have the means to do that. And, you know, is if asking forgiveness in any way makes our position any stronger, we apologize. Um, we’re, we’re, we’re in, we’re in a bind. And we understand that, that, that the bind we’ve created is not so substantial, which is the criteria that, that it offends the purpose of the act itself. Um, because other than the fact that it’s different, it’s imperceptibly different unless you know what it’s for.

1:11:11 ‘cause it doesn’t look different from a gutter, and it, it doesn’t look different from electrical line, and it doesn’t look different from a cable line. It doesn’t. And if there’s anything we can do to make it less obvious, we will gladly do that. And, and thank you for putting up with me too. Thank you to both of you. Appreciate it. Uh, I’ll turn to this slide board right now. Do, would we, is it, do we need any other, any other questions? I’m good. All good. Okay. I’m gonna bring the, uh, public, uh, portion of this hearing to a close. And, uh, thank you. Thank you.

1:11:48 Okay. Um,

1:11:51 there is a section in our packet here that, uh, discusses, you know, I think the, the basis of our deliberation. And, uh, Mr. Hubbard also kind of, uh, highlighted some of the statutory context around this type of thing. And I think it’s pretty clear from section 110, three C of the, of the bylaw and the subsequent, uh, Supreme Court ruling that the authority of the OHDC is very, very clear, and it’s quite, and it’s very, very specific as well. So it just has to do, doesn’t have anything to do with these other issues that are pressing on the town. And I think that Mr. Sutter and, and Ms. Johnson, you make very good points

1:12:36 around, uh, clean energy around new technology and how that it gets integrated, but the proper venue for that type of deliberation is it town meeting. And I think the mandate of the OHDC is very specific to historical, you know, appropriateness. And I think many of the points that you’ve considered today, uh, you know, it’s up to the commission to determine, uh, a consistent policy and, uh, a set of guidelines. From my point of view, I think, uh, there are clear standards as they’ve been articulating. We’ve been through this process before. You know, there are clear standards and procedures. Uh, there is consistency in the, uh, prosecution of violations.

1:13:22 And I think there’s also a willingness to, to work, uh, closely with the applicants. Now, I think one of the, one of the challenges here is that,

1:13:34 you know, uh, there has not been an application of a, a completed application process. And I think if there would’ve been an application process, it would’ve been denied a priori. And I think, um, you, I’m not terribly taken by the argument that there’s capriciousness in the fact that there’s no consideration of specifics of the case. And we are clearly mandated as a board not to make those those considerations. That’s really up to the OHDC to, to determine that. Uh, so, you know, net, net on balance, and I’m, I’m probably speaking out ahead a little bit of the, of, of my, of the board here, but, uh, you know, I, I think that, um,

1:14:22 you know, I don’t see arbitrariness here. The fact that there are other conduits is a function of, um, you know, precedent that is outside the control of the OHDC. So it’s with some sympathy that, uh, you know, we would all like to get rid of all of these conduits, but, uh, you know, that is not something that the OHDC that currently constituted OHDC can, can effect. So I think we have to kind of, um, uh, you know, take that into consideration as well. And if anybody else has any, any thoughts or comments on, on, on, on, you know, on the standard of review and on kind of the authority of the OHDC in this matter,

1:15:06 Uh, the O-O-H-D-C voted five to zero, and I don’t see any, uh, uh, what they, that they were arbitrary, uh, in their decision. So, um, yes. Yeah, it’s, it’s a very high standard. I mean, I just wanna reiterate that we’ve seen that many times coming from this board. It’s a very high standard for that reason to give deference, uh, to the OHDC. And, uh, we’re not supposed to step in their shoes post haste, you know, and I agree with Mr. Greater, I don’t see anything arbitrary or capricious here that would rise that level to, to change their decision.

1:15:46 Yeah. I think they, the, the bo, the HD C’s fully within their powers and, and, you know, we’re not in a position even in this case, however painful it is to, to overturn. I mean, that, that is something we have to, and it’s an honest mistake. Um, but if we were to make, uh, if the, if I’m, I, I’m speaking on, I, I think looking at the OHTC, if they were to make an exception in particular cases, that would smack of much greater arbitrariness, unfortunately. And, and this is a very difficult, uh, situation, and it is not, uh, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a happy circumstance for this board to, uh, you know, to say that, right.

1:16:29 The chair. Yes. Uh, yeah. Just a couple points to make. And I think, you know, just for the audience or anyone listening that, uh, and you just addressed this, that there were several things that were brought up this evening. And when you look at all of the information from the minutes and look at specifically for the standard of review and the Supreme Court ruling, and the role of our board, and what our decisions are in deciding for the process of handling the violation, what the past president was for the board itself, and, you know, was this their process executed in a way that they normally do execute that process. And some of the other things that were brought up tonight in regards to the Green Marblehead Committee, which I sit on

1:17:17 that committee as well, and the Net zero plan, and those are some of the things that have been discussed as how do we transition to discussing things such as, you know, dual pan windows or, um, the heat pumps or the solar panels, all the things that were discussed tonight. And that’s part of this process, uh, for, not just for Marblehead, but for all of the communities of, you know, how do we preserve our historical district and then also have a way to investigate what the current guidelines are, and how do we adjust those guidelines and, you know, how do we address and look at those bylaws, and how do we pivot in a way that d doesn’t have tremendous impact financially on our,

1:18:02 you know, on our citizens. And that is part of the work that the Net Zero was working through and part of, you know, the grants that we’re exploring as far as the select board and the committee to see how do, how do we make these changes? Or how do we address these things? What are opportunities? Uh, and that is something that we’re definitely really concerned about and thinking about and working through. What does that look like as we move into the future? However, our role here tonight is very specific in regards to, um, not deciding whether or not, um, all of those things that I just mentioned are important or not important. It’s very specific to this situation and our standard of what we’re supposed to be doing and reviewing and going through the standard

1:18:49 of review are very specific to the handling of this violation. So I just wanted to take a minute to, ‘cause there was a lot of things that were brought up tonight. Um, I just wanted to separate between those two things that we’re looking at and some of the things that were addressed with the previous, uh, you know, as you’re walking around and you see lines, and it can be confusing just to, you know, as someone who lived in, uh, old Town when I first moved to Marblehead and have been, you know, in this area for a long time, uh, understanding that there are things that our utilities or aren’t, and it can be a very confusing process, which is why going through the application process helps to hopefully clarify some of that. So Thank You. Yeah. Just wanted to address that from the Green Marble Committee side of things.

1:19:35 And no, the work that’s being done of trying to find a way to resolve, not, like I said, not just for our community, but all the communities in the Commonwealth that are struggling with trying to figure out how we’re going to make it through these Yeah. New phases. Okay. Well, any other questions before we, uh, move to entertaining emotion?

1:19:59 Okay. So with that, I’d like to entertain a motion, uh, to deny the request of Sally Thompson and uphold the commission determination. So, second, please. We got, I’ll second that. All in favor vote is unanimous. Thank you very much for your time tonight.

1:20:28 Okay. Um, we are onto our next agenda item. Um, and this is a declaration of surplus, uh, vehicle 2014 Ford Explorer from Mark Souza. The, uh, Arbor Master, like, uh, a motion, uh, to declare the following item is surplus and no longer needed for municipal purpose, so that it may be disposed of in accordance with the town’s policy on surplus equipment. A 2014 Ford Explorer. So, moved. Second. All in favor, unanimous. All right. The next item is, uh, uh, the, the Christmas walk, 2023.

1:21:13 Um, this happens every year. Very happy occasion. The, uh, motion is long and self-explanatory, so I’ll get right to it. The motion is to approve the request from Catherine, uh, Koch, executive Director, Marblehead Changer Chamber of Commerce for the following events and venues, subject to approval from the police and fire, the usual rules, regulations, and fees and receipt if they’ll require certificate of insurance. Number one, annual tree lighting, Friday, December 1st, 2023 at the National Grand Bank Parking Lot. Event starts at 5:30 PM Tree lighting is at 7:00 PM Um, holiday wreaths and garlands. Now, do you want me to stop, uh, for, for each motion? Or just, or just go all the way through. Okay. Uh, holiday wreaths,

1:21:58 garlands hang approximately 150 holiday wreaths and garland wraps through the business district, starting on the week of December, uh, uh, week of November 20th, 2023, subject to approval from the Marblehead Musical Light Department, and receipt of the required certificate of insurance. Uh, all decorations shall be removed the week of January 10th, 2024. Uh, third item is holiday lighting. Turn on the holiday lights at the old townhouse in state’s, uh, landing by Friday, November 17th, 2023. Uh, the number of fourth item is the 52nd annual Marblehead Christmas Walk Parade, Saturday, December 2nd, 2023. The parade begins at 12 noon at the State Street Landing, and continues onto Washington Street and then onto Atlantic Avenue. The parade route continues for the, uh, from the police station, taking a right onto Gary Street,

1:22:45 and then a right onto Pleasant Street continues down Pleasant Street, past Village Plaza, and ending in the National Grand Bank parking lot. That is the motion. Do I second? So moved. So sorry. Missed that step. Good enough. Uh, all those in favor?

1:23:04 We we’ll reverse there. Unanimous, uh, it’s where, heard it. Okay. This is another, um, motion to be entertained from the, uh, old for the Christmas walk for, for use of the old townhouse space. Again. Uh, I’d like to enter a motion to request from Catherine, uh, Koch, executive Director Chamber of Commerce, to use the old townhouse, uh, on Saturday, December 2nd, 2020 3:11 AM to 5:00 PM during the 52nd annual Christmas walk. Wow. That’s been going for musical dance performances, subject to the usual rules, regulations, fees, receipt of the required certificate of insurance, and to waive the rental fee for this event. Second. All in favor, unanimous. Thank you.

1:23:50 Um, okay. This is, uh, comes up annually as well to, uh, approve specific, uh, parking regulations. And again, the motion is extensive. Um, I’ll go ahead and entertain a motion to approve the following parking regulations and traffic flow changes on recommendation of the police Chief tree lighting December 1st at 7:00 PM In the event of an overflow crowd that creates a public safety concern, uh, the police chief will request the board to authorize the chief of police, yes, the Chief of Police to, uh, close either Pleasant Street between School Street and Spring Street, or Essex Street between Atlantic Ag and Pleasant Street. In either case, traffic will be interrupted only if necessary. Santa Claus’s arrival at Cart Clark landing December 2nd at

1:24:38 about 9:30 AM the parking lot at Clark Landing, uh, to be closed entirely at 8:30 AM December 2nd, uh, Santis Parade, Christmas Walk Parade staging on Front Street between Boston Yacht Club and State Street, including Darling Wharf at about 10:30 AM then then stepping off from Clark Landing on route, including State Street, Washington Street, and Atlantic Avenue, Ry Street and Pleasant Street, the closure of Front Street between Water Street and State Street, as well as Darling Street in its entirety. The hours of this closure to be 10:00 AM until 12:30 PM All streets along the pay route, uh, play a parade route will be controlled by police officers as needed to facilitate the safe passage of the parade. I would ask that you board, uh, well,

1:25:24 do I discourage the throwing of candy, uh, or, or, like, items to children along the, the, uh, so, so moved. Second, please. Second. All of in favor, unanimous. Uh, the next is, um, uh, uh, a wok sponsored by the Epstein Hill All school in the North Shore community. And, uh, and it’s to benefit the Nahal, uh, kibbutz in the south of Israel. And the motion that I’d like to entertain is as follow, follows the request from Haley Foley, Epstein l School to hold, to host a community walk to benefit Nahal, a kibbutz in south of Israel on Sunday, December 10th, 2023,

1:26:11 subject to approval of the Marblehead Police, recreation and Parks, receipt of the certified Certificate of Insurance naming the town of Marblehead as additionally insured and police details, the event will start at Devereux Beach and go around the neck. Start time is 10:00 AM No permanent marking shall be made on the streets, and any temporary marking shall be removed at the conclusion of the event. So move. Second. All those in favor? Unanimous. Okay. Now we have a series of votes, and I’ll take them in, uh, sequence and we’ll vote on them in sequence. And I’ll ask Thatcher to give us a little, uh, color around these. The first is, uh, an extension of a contract for state engineering. Thatcher, if you could give Us, yeah. Stantec Engineering, which was part of the, uh, village Vine

1:26:57 and Pleasant Street Project, uh, asking simply to extend the date of the contract, um, and the in order to cover an invoice, which is paid for by Chapter 90 funding. Um, and, and what this is for is this, this was the final, uh, review by the engineers to close out the project. So this is just to make sure the contract date covered the date of their final action and closeout for, for this whole project. Okay. Any, any questions? We straightforward, I’d like to understand a motion to amend the contract between the Town and Stantec for engineering services at Village Vine and Pleasant Street Project by extending it

1:27:42 to July 1st, 2023. 2024. 24. It should be July 1st, 2024. And authorized chair or, or Chair Pro Tempore 23 is correct. 23 Is correct. Yeah, it was already Done. We’re already done. Thank you. Thank you. We’re just updating the contract to cover the date to Cover that date. Got it. Thank you very much. Okay. So, again, by extending it to July 1st, 2023, and authorize the chair or chair, pro board to sign the amendment on behalf of the board. So second. Second. All those in favor, unanimous. Uh, the next is, uh, Bill’s Auto Clinic, and that has to do with tele. This is the annual contract for towing during snow emergencies and other such situations for the winter, which we

1:28:28 Annualize every year, which we do every year. So I entertain a motion to approve the license agreement between, between the Town and Bill’s Auto Clinic, Salem, Massachusetts, as presented and authorize the chair to sign on behalf of the board. So moved. Second. All those in favor? Unanimous. Thank you. The next is the fire station garage door. I think this is an article, article 11 project that’s already been funded, right? Yep. Okay. Approved that last time meeting last year. Okay. So the motion is to, to award, uh, the con uh, the contract to Central Fire Station. Garage Door Project to American Door STA sales LLC of Lin Mass in the amount of $39,600. And authorize the chair chair to sign the contract on behalf of the board.

1:29:13 So moved. Second. All those in favor, unanimous. And the last one is, uh, IT services, which is, uh, actually there’s an interesting story behind it that I think people should know. Yeah. As I reported last month, which you, you, you, uh, voted to prove a, a similar invoice. Um, uh, we engaged through the, uh, it collaborative through the town of Danvers. Uh, this is the contractor. Through, through that collaborative, um, we’ve made a interim agreement for services, uh, until such time as the collaborative voted and approved our entry into the collaborative. And then the, uh, the, the contractual agreement with N oh four would be for the duration of the terms. Um, we had expected the interim to be just one month,

1:29:59 but as I reported before, they didn’t have a core meta meeting. The collaborative finally did vote to approve Mar head entering into collaborative. So that’s been done. We’ve not yet received the, the contract documentation. So we’re doing just another month of interim within oh four. Until such time, we sign the contracts with a collaborative that fully engages us into the agreement, and so we wouldn’t have to do these going forward. So the termination of the e plus contract was, was a month ago, right? A month, uh, little ago, Yeah. Or so We’re, we’re basically bridging between eight plus and, and the, yep. Any questions? Uh, okay. I’d like to entertain a motion, uh, to approve invoice INV 23 dash 3 8 9 8

1:30:46 from Inova four for IT services in the amount of 7,975, uh, dollars and 0 cents. And authorize the chair to sign on behalf of the board. So moved. Second. All in favor? Okay. Unanimous. Now we get to the agenda item that Jack Ridge is waiting for. It’s the, uh, the annual, the 2024, uh, annual town meeting opening of the warrant. And, uh, there’s four separate motions, um,

1:31:20 to, uh, to do here. And they’re consistent, uh, year to year, pretty much. So, I’d like to entertain that first motion that the annual town meeting be held on Monday, May 6th, 2024 at 7:00 PM at Marblehead Veterans Middle School Auditorium at Duncan Slay Square. Two, 2000, uh, 217 at Pleasant Street. So moved. Second. Second. All in favor? Unanimous. Motion to open the warrant for the day. For, for, for May 6th, 2024. Annual town meeting. So moved. Second. All those in favor? Unanimous. Motion to close the warrant

1:32:06 for the general public on Friday, January 19th, 2024 at 12 noon. So moved. Second. All those in favor? Motion to close the Warrant for Town Government Boards and Commissions on Friday, January 26th, 2024 at 12. No. So moved. Second. All in favor? Unanimous. Good Democracy Marches on in the town.

1:32:35 Okay, so the next speak. What’s that? Well, usually he just grabs the, the microphone, please. Uh, Mr. Moderator? Mr. Moderator, please. Yes. Thank you for the Opportunity. It was so bashful. No, I, I have a hard time at the microphone. Uh, 172 days, 22 hours and 26 minutes. We have town meeting and the opening of the warrant, uh, allows citizens and the town to, uh, present articles for approval that become the, uh, eventually become the agenda for town meeting. Uh, if anybody has questions about the process, uh, I welcome them to reach out to me at any time. Um, I’m pretty easy to find and, uh, those who show up

1:33:21 to town meeting become the legislators of the town. Um, it’s truly of the people, by the people and for the people. Uh, hope everybody, uh, pays attention to the public meetings between now and town meeting, because you’ll learn a lot. And I hope everybody plans to attend. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Moderator. Okay. Next. Next item, uh, on our agenda is the, uh, formation of two committees. We’ll start, uh, with the, uh, green Marblehead Implementation Committee. And by way of background, um, it is a committee that’s designed to supersede the Green Marblehead Committee, which did the planning around this process.

1:34:07 So, uh, it is the same membership, and the motion essentially is to remand the Green Marblehead Committee into the Green Marblehead Implementation Committee. And the composition is such that it reflects the identical membership. So we’re just providing continuity here, but remanding the, uh, the committee specifically. So I’d like to, any, if there’s any questions, uh, I’d like a motion to establish the Green Marblehead Implementation Committee with the membership as follows, town Administrator, town Planner one, select Board member. Two representatives from Sustainable Marblehead, the Public Health Director, building commissioner, finance

1:34:53 Director, Marblehead Municipal Light Department, the General Manager and Commission chair. And, uh, the school department representative. So moved. Second. All those in favor? Outstanding. Made a good work. Continue. Uh, similarly, we, uh, had a Harbor Plan working group that you’d like to remand into the Harbor Plan Implementation Committee. And again, this will be, uh, a straight, uh, uh, transfer of the membership. Uh, so I’d like to entertain a motion to establish the Harbor Plan Implementation Committee with the membership as follows, two members, uh,

1:35:41 of the Harbor and Waters Board. Two members, uh, from the board of, uh, uh, from the select board, one member from the planning board, one member at large with a three year turn to expire June, 2024. One member at large for, with a three year term to expire June, 2025. Uh, one member as business owner, uh, and part of the Chamber of Commerce, one member, uh, from Recreation and Parks, one member from the Disabilities Commission, one member from the commercial, uh, from the commercial as a commercial fishing representative, one member from Sustainable Marblehead, the Town Administrator, Harbor Master Town Planner, DPW,

1:36:26 director and the town engineer, rounds out this very full fulsome compliment of people and expertise to the, uh, committee. So moved. Second. All those in favor, unanimous. Thank you very much. Um, now we have a request to use the old townhouse from, uh, Pam Peterson. And, uh, this is for the holiday celebration for all volunteers that make the, make the Commission’s projects possible. And I can entertain a motion, uh, for, uh, from a request from Pam Peterson Marblehead Historical Commission. Use the old townhouse on Thursday, December 7th, 2020, uh, three from 4:00 PM to 8:00 PM for a holiday celebration,

1:37:15 subject to the usual rules, regulations, fees, and to waive the rental fee for this event. So, move Second. Move in favor. Unanimous. Um, okay. Now this comes, uh, Thatcher with a little bit of explanation if you, if you could, it’s from the Board of Retirement. Yeah. From, uh, from the, the Board of Retirement. Uh, no action is required. This is, um, um, the retirement board being compliant with Mass Journal Law, chapter 32, section 22, modified by chapter 3 0 6 of the acts of 1996, which requires the retirement board to submit a copy of their annual operating budget at least 30 days. They’re well in advance of that. Uh, submitted the budget for, for legislative approval.

1:38:03 I will note that, um, it, it, it stated here a copy of their annual 2024 budget. They work on a calendar basis budget. So, um, the numbers that are presented here will inform us as to what the obligations of the town will be for, um, its contribution to the system, but on a fiscal year basis. So half of it’s covered under the current fiscal year. Half is covered for the next fiscal year. But, so anyways, uh, no action necessary. This is just meeting a statutory requirement to officially inform. We can see the projections there. Yeah. Okay, great.

1:38:49 I want get the right page here. So that’s just for action, no motion necessary. We do need a motion, however, on the next agenda item to approve the minutes of October 25th, 2023, which you have in front of you. So moved. Second. All those in favor? I sustain. I wasn’t there. Uh, okay.

1:39:13 Uh, the next is a right of entry, uh, and authorization to remove, uh, trees, uh, at seven Franklin Street. Now, we do have Thatcher, a number of pictures showing the trees, but maybe you can give an explanation around, around some of this. So, So this is the, uh, Franklin Street Fire Station. That’s the, the, the, uh, facility that we intend to do renovation work and such, uh, butting right up to the building on private property that’s, that’s property next to the fire station are located these various trees. And so, uh, in part to move trees away from the building in order to,

1:39:58 as we do renovations to protect it from, you know, debris and such, uh, imposing as well as providing clear access to the building to conduct the work. Um, you know, the fire chief reached out to the neighbor, worked with them to get authorization for us to remove, uh, some of the particular trees. We worked with the tree warden to go in and, and identify the appropriate trees that needed to be removed, what trees needed to be maintained. So, so they, there was a collaborative work to, With, with the resident? Yeah, with the resident. So this is a total agreement of the resident, uh, in coordination with the tree warden and, and the fire chief. Uh, so this is just the right of entry allows our workers

1:40:45 to be on the neighbor’s property while they’re conducting this work. Thank you for any, uh, any questions. If not, I’d like to entertain a motion to enter into a right of entry agreement as prepared by counsel to remove trees at the Parson, uh, Barnard House, condominium seven Franklin Street, and authorize the chair, uh, to sign on behalf of the board. So move second. Those in favor? Okay. Unanimous. Uh, we have now a, uh, submission letter, which you have in your packet, including a resume, uh, from Gail Mack, who would like to be considered for a seat on the Marblehead Disabilities Commission.

1:41:30 Excellent. Fantastic.

1:41:34 And I think that’s all we need to say to that. If we could enter that into the, into the record. Also, to be entered into a record is, uh, a request by, uh, Lindsey Duby, uh, to, uh, fill one of the vacancies on the fin com as well. And if we could enter that into the record, it’d be much appreciated. Um, okay. With that, we’re in the public comment. Uh, part of the, is there any, Excuse me, can I just add on that? So we have two people for the finance committee Check. We have another, we have two vacancies. Yeah, I think we have two residents. 2 1 2 vacancies or one vacancy. I think it’s one. It’s one vacancy. So my question is, we have two,

1:42:24 if we could set a date in the future for all, anybody interested. ‘cause it would be great to fill that position before the end of the year.

1:42:36 That’s right. That’s a good idea. Should we have a, uh, a resume deadline, Nate, and then, or a then December 13th? Well, I mean, on the 13th, our next meeting will be the 13th. So, so can we go the December

1:42:55 As a, as a deadline? Yeah, that gives Us, yeah, December, Friday, December 8th for the deadline for, um, for, uh, letters of interest. And then hopefully we can, hopefully we can have that meeting on the 13th. That, that, that’s lot, That’s plenty of time. Over, over two and a half weeks, three weeks. And, and we’ve been advertising this for a couple months. Yep. Mm-Hmm. That’s a good point. Right? Should that be a motion or just put out there? I think it put out Okay. Yeah, the Chair Discretion of the chair. I’ll just, I think we’ll just, just execute on that and I think we have the, the Next and we’ll open it out there. Right? Absolutely. Thank you Will. Okay. Any other comments? Sorry for the, no, that’s all right.

1:43:43 No, no problem. Uh, okay, we’re at the public comment. Is anybody online or in the room would like to speak? Uh, okay. Hold on. Hold, hold on one sec. Make sure that’s turned on.

1:43:57 I have Jordan Roosevelt to have, um, I asked a couple months ago about the dumpster in front of the riptide. They told me the police chief gave permission to have it there. Um, I, I see it as a safety issue. We just had another fatality down on Pleasant Street, you know, further up real busy street. Um, I was told it was only gonna be there a short time. It’s been there a couple months. And I was walking, uh, within the past two weeks, down Washington Street on the one way side, um, by, uh, pleasant Street. Now they put another dumpster over there, and the house has a driveway, so I don’t even know what it’s on the street. They, both those areas have two hour parking. So I, I think these people are abusing their privileges. I don’t mind if someone’s gotta do work for a couple weeks,

1:44:43 but they shouldn’t be situated. I’m going through other towns. I don’t see this. So I think it’s a real safety concern before someone gets hurt. Um, the other thing I’m just wondering about, at the, um, five corners down here, the restaurants that have the seating on the sidewalk, and, um, you know, Shub took it out months ago. They have it on private property. Um, they’ve taken up all the parking spaces, and when the make deliveries to those restaurants, they have to park on the crosswalk, walk daily on those roads, excuse me, roads and, uh, the, the delivery trucks, because they can’t park near the buildings because these seats that are, uh, they’re seven days a week that are hardly ever getting used a couple hours a day, a couple times a week. I, I think someone needs to look into this

1:45:30 before we allow people. Um, you know, I don’t think in the middle of the winter we’re gonna be sitting out there, but, but I just think it’s abused because they put the seats at the, uh, at five corners that they actually put ‘em on the sidewalks when they do have ‘em set up. So the pedestrians have to walk behind the barriers. Now. They got hot top berms and stuff for older people to trip. The sidewalks are for people to walk. And the restaurants, they should buy a restaurant that has inside seating. The town shouldn’t be providing outside seating. Um, let ‘em buy a bigger facility. The, the sidewalks need to be cleared, you know, for the public to use. And like I say, the short amount of hours in a day that the sidewalks are being used, I think they sh we should look for another solution to that. We, we didn’t have it in the past.

1:46:15 I understand it started up during Covid, but it, but it’s a real traffic issue. You’re blocking all these intersections with big trucks, blocking crosswalks, allowing dumpsters to be there for months and weeks. And, um, you know, I don’t know what other towns are doing it, but I don’t see it. So that’s all I wanna say. The other thing I wanna mention, maybe you already did something about it, Peter Pueblo, that was a police officer for a number of years, crossing guard most recently, probably four or five years ago. He, he was almost 90 years old. He passed on, um, I don’t know, you may wanna send his family, um, a letter. He might have already done it, but, um, he, he lived in this town for 50 years. I knew him personally. He voler he did a lot for a police officer. He was involved in a lot of other endeavors that benefited,

1:47:03 um, a lot of people. So I, I just think, I really feel sad. He had a good long life. I’m glad he is not suffering anymore. But, um, you know, that’s all I wanna say. Thank you, Thank you. To inform the board. So the dumpster permit on Pleasant Street expires Friday, and then the, the, the outside outdoor dining expires November 30 I Per per mm-Hmm. Okay. Yes. Thank you for reminding us. Um, okay. Any, any other, uh, public comment? I don’t think we have anybody online. Do we have anybody online?

1:47:46 Well, I’m gonna start with the, uh, the towns administration of the Freedom of Information Act and work my way forward from there. Now, I sent you all a package two months ago and nobody responded, which is greatly disappointing to me. But the issue at hand is the Law for the Freedom of Information Act says that, that you’re supposed to provide us upon request. The documents that we re that we, that we ask for the town policy, which is on the website, is very clear. It says, upon the request, the town will estimate a fee, and that nothing will be provided until the fee is paid. And then upon completion of the work by the town, they will,

1:48:35 uh, refund the balance of the fee to the requester. Now, it turns out that this is not what happens in this town. Um, when the, they, when you send in a request, you get a, uh, an estimate from the town. I’ve had estimates from seven $500 to $56. There’s no backup for this, for the, for these numbers. It’s just a, uh, it appears something of a random number. If you don’t pay the money, then your request is not filled. Now, uh, there’s a word for that. It’s called extortion. But if in fact, that the town would fulfill its obligation or what it says it’s gonna do, which is going to keep track of the time and refund the

1:49:21 balance, then it would make sense. However, this is not what happens.

1:49:27 I filed a request and paid by seven $50. I requested a breakdown at the time Town Council wrote back and said there were no obligation to provide me with that breakdown of the time and refused to refund the money. I took the town to Small Claims Court to try and get my 500 I on a separate Voya. I found out that the town spent nine hours on the request, which is $175, gave a balance of $575 that should be refunded. I requested $575 and of course, got nothing. So I took the Town to Small Claims Court where Kyle Wiley got to spend a morning. Uh, I spent a morning, and the small claims magistrate declared

1:50:14 they had no jurisdiction. However, the town then got it Bill for $3,000 from me tall and, and Costa for not paying the $575 that the town owes me. So somebody’s making some bad decisions. Why would you spend $3,000 not to refund the $575 that says clearly on your website that that’s the way it’s gonna work. So I further went to the Secretary of State and asked them to investigate it. The Secretary of State called the town of Marblehead. The town of Marblehead, told them that no, they did not keep track of the hours, that the estimated fee was, in fact, the fee that would be charged regardless, which is not what’s stated on the, on the, uh, website. So we have a problem here.

1:51:01 Uh, I could say that you’re lying on the website or that it’s false on the website. You know, you choose your nu you choose your word, you, the wording you wanna choose is up to you. But the short story is it doesn’t work the way it’s, it’s supposed to work. Now, the problem going forward with this is we’re gonna come, you have, you have a structural deficit here, and nobody disagrees with that fact. And we need, the town’s gonna need more money to, to, uh, to operate essentially. And there’s no question about that. However, the problem’s gonna be is when you go ask for the money. We have a trust issue here. We can’t trust the town to do what they say they’re gonna do. And people are gonna say, no, we’re not gonna give you the money because you don’t spend

1:51:48 it the way you say you’re gonna spend it. And when you say you’re gonna do something, you don’t do it. So, extortion and lying are not good looks for town government, and this body here is responsible for the wellbeing of this town. And if we wanna get a a override past, you’re gonna have to stand up and do the right thing and get this town, uh, get the town government organized so that it operates honestly and efficiently. And if you don’t, then you’re not, the town’s not gonna give you any more money, which brings it to the other issue, which is you have to get a new town attorney. Me, Tellman Costa cost us probably $5 million at the transfer station.

1:52:34 They spend $3,000 to not get my $575 back. So now I have to go to Superior Court to try and get that money, which I don’t want to do. But if I, if necessary, that’s what it’ll happen. Uh, as a side note, you have the, uh, what do they call themselves? The, uh, the tax case that you had on Monday for $3,000 worth of taxes. The town attorney wrote a 35 page rebuttal of their claim. So what did that cost? It might’ve been a lot simpler just to pay the, to, to forego the $3,000. These are just bad decisions that are being made, and it’s a waste of the town’s resources and money. So I would, uh, the three things are, I want my $575 back.

1:53:23 I want the FOIA to work the way the town says it’s gonna work, and I want the town to go out and, and, uh, advertise for new, uh, legal counsel. Thank you. Thank you for your, uh, for your statement.

1:53:42 Okie dokie. Anybody else in the room?

1:53:49 Um, Just one question on the Harbor Plan Implementation Committee. Um, so that got rolled over from the Harbor Plan Working Group, the original one, which, um, was really a guidance committee to, there was a consultant doing the work. And that group, um, per, you know, performed the guidance to help direct the consultant when this committee actually sort of begins to, to function, is their ability to add folks on it. Because at this point in time, there won’t be a consultant. So this is really implementation, which I see as, um, rolling up your sleeves and getting the work done. And so will there be the ability to add folks in various disciplines so that, you know,

1:54:37 we can really focus on implementation?

1:54:42 Well, yeah, look, I mean, I’ll, I’ll let that take a crack at that and then I’ll, I’ll comment too, Right? Um, so it, it, it is, you know, the, these both committees achieved their initial objectives of developing the plans. So rolling them over into implementation. Um, in regard to the harbor, it, it’ll be on a asne basis. So as the committee meets and understands the tasks to, for implementation, it may, uh, require engagement with contractors, consultants, or others to fill that role. So that will be determined by these committees as they sit down and figure out how, how they intend to implement, uh, the requirements that are in the plans. I would just add that there are other, there are two at large members too that may be constituted differently for expertise.

1:55:29 But I think a lot of that, a lot of the planning, uh, you know, committee was, you know, heavily represented, represented with people who execute, you know, on, on the town side and otherwise, and I think they, you know, our thought was that that continuity would actually net net be a real benefit. But, uh, you know, nothing, nothing obviates. If we feel there’s a screaming need for expertise, I think we could, you know, uh, since the committee is formed by the select board, we have the ability to modify it if necessary. But, you know, we’ll, we’ll wait, I think rather than kind of make that decision, not prioritize, I think that the best idea is, so you’ll see how it runs. Uh, I, I, and, and we’ll get recommendations from Thatcher if we, if we think that, uh, alright, sounds good. Thank you. But thank you. Appreciate it. Okay. Anybody else?

1:56:17 Public hearing? Alright. No, no more public comment. Uh, Mr. Town Administrator, if you’d give us your update. Sure. Quick updates. One, remind everyone. Next week is Thanksgiving week. So the town municipal buildings will be closing on Wednesday at 2:30 PM Um, and we’ll be closed, obviously all day Thursday and on Friday of next week. So for the short week, for the short week for the, uh, the, the Thanksgiving holidays. Uh, another item, uh, rail Trail improvement projects, um, both the Lead mills portion of the trail and the Swamp Scott connection portion of the rail trail. Um, we expect that the, um, RF Qs will be going out,

1:57:08 uh, very soon through, through Becky Curran. Um, and this is for the design, uh, elements of, of those projects. Uh, as you may recall, the, the, the Lead Mills portion we funded through apa. Uh, the Swamp Scott Trail Link portion is funded through an earmark from, from Congressman Moulton’s office. Uh, as part of the trail, uh, systems, uh, the, the takeaway is, uh, even though we’re heading into the winter months, uh, this, the season that we’re, we do the procurement piece, we, you know, do the design work so that we can hit the next, uh, construction cycle for continually making improvements to the trails. So we get a lot of feedback from folks. I have a lot of interest in that,

1:57:53 so I just wanted let it be known. The work continues, uh, uh, even though we’re heading into winter, um, being ready for next season, uh, for continuous improvements. Uh, next, um, uh, hazard mitigation plan, uh, draft plan is now on our website. Uh, this is a 200 plus page plan to look at all the, um, um, potential hazards to the community. And so this is our opportunity to get input from the public and others. Uh, this is the last step in the process before we do a final approval of the plan. Um, having gone through it, it’s pretty comprehensive. It covers, um, if you read the whole thing,

1:58:39 you walk away pretty depressed with all the potential disasters that could happen. Uh, not that they will. Uh, the key thing is, is having a plan for us to be prepared and ready should any, any one of those, uh, uh, disasters should hit. But again, the takeaway is, uh, that the plans on the website, we want, you know, people to take a look and provide feedback, uh, to help us improve that plan. Uh, and then finally, um, you know, the other, uh, hot topic, uh, in Marblehead and many other communities is the, so-called EBTA zoning, uh, requirements from the state. Um, the, through the planning board, we, we’ve held a couple of public events. One, uh, an online, uh, input session as well as, uh,

1:59:26 in-person public session, getting input on, uh, how best to, to meet the requirements for, for zoning for, uh, for housing to meet the requirements of the state. Um, uh, we will be hosting Becky Curran, actually, we’ll be hosting an online open house. Um, and so information will be coming out, I think tomorrow or in the next day or so, uh, to provide public input. So it’ll be, uh, I believe it’s a couple week process where it’s an online process. People can go into the portal, uh, review the information and provide input. Um, where Can we find that, Patrick? Uh, there’ll be it, there’ll be the news, you know, on our website. They’ll, on the websites when it gets posted,

2:00:11 there’ll be the, the news break link, um, to update that. So the, the objective is to get as much input from the public and, and others as possible in developing, uh, Marblehead strategy to meet the, the zone requirements. She’s also reaching out to, uh, focus groups. So, as one example, we had a fair housing meeting yesterday. Uh, and, and one of the agenda items was Becky asking all the questions and getting input from the Fair Housing Committee members. So she will be engaging with other, uh, committees, groups, uh, uh, you know, particular groups of people asking particular questions to, to solicit feedback.

2:00:58 So the, the, the takeaway on this is just that there is, uh, a monumental outreach effort to get community input and, and, and other input, um, to come up with the best strategy and plan, uh, to meet the requirements, which obviously will culminate at town meeting. ‘cause it’ll require a town meeting vote to approve, uh, whatever recommendations are brought forth at that time. So, So my understanding it includes a zoning, uh, decision and which includes a plan, uh, that’s specific to Marblehead, right? I think it’s important people understand that it’s Yeah. Zoning requirements along with a plan to, to, to, Right. So there are some minimum requirements. So we, we, it has to be a minimum 27 acres, uh, minimum density of 15 units per acre.

2:01:45 And Becky’s done a great job of demonstrating what does 15 look like? What does 30, what does 50 units per acre look like? And it’s somewhat amazing that one, all those densities already currently exist in Marblehead. Yeah, they’re, they’re already, you know, in there. Um, and so, um, it, it’s, it’s figuring out where should the zoning be and what’s the density levels in the zoning, um, to meet the requirements. And again, stress, the requirement is to create the zoning. Not, there’s not a requirement to do the housing. The, the marketplace will, will dictate that, but it, the, the town’s obligation under this is to do the zoning requirements so that the goal here is

2:02:33 to craft the, to meet the zone requirements in the most conducive way to marble head’s character and, and interests, um, while still being compliant. Thank you, Patrick, To that, pending any questions? Concludes my update. Let’s Move to, uh, select board announcements. Anybody, anybody got anything? No, None. Uh, I do, go ahead. Go forward. Yeah. Uh, few things, uh, just, uh, last, uh, Saturday, uh, Dave Rogers, uh, again, another, uh,

2:03:15 beautiful, uh, veterans Day service. Um, really good. And, and, uh, Moses got up there and, uh, rightly so, uh, embarrassed David, which is very nice. Uh, this will be for the second time, got ‘em twice. It’ll be David’s last Veterans Day service as our veterans agent. So, uh, standing ovation, well deserved standing ovation for Dave, for all he’s done for the veterans in this town and the town of Marblehead. Also, Andrew Scolio from the high school, uh, brought the high school chorus down. They were tremendous. Um, very good. And then, um, just wanna mention, so we talked about Duncan Slay Square today, um, for the town meeting.

2:04:00 Just want to thank Harry Christensen, who continues, uh, to keep up the, uh, memorial plaque in a little garden there at the base of, uh, uh, the driveway at the, uh, uh, veterans Middle School, uh, in honor of Duncan. Um, very interesting story. If you ever, ever a chance to read it about Duncan. Uh, one of my head’s finest. So just thank you to Harry. Um, and don’t forget Marcia, ‘cause when Harry was on here, he always said Marsha was the one that I think kicked out everything. Yeah. Um, yes. Um, and a couple deaths. Um, one was clever Preble, as you mentioned, and, uh, uh, and then, uh, Carl Johnson, uh, here in Marblehead.

2:04:47 Uh, Carl was on, um, many, uh, boards volunteered his time, um, and just, uh, you know, two good men. So thank you. Do you wanna make a motion to send their families a, uh, letter of Condolence? That would be fantastic. Yeah. If we haven’t done that. So moved second. All in favor? Aye. Excellent. Uh, yeah, I guess the only thing I’d like to say is to, uh, is to wish, uh, our chair and her family any, uh, you know, uh, prayers and, uh, and, and quick recover. Oh, one more. Please. Go ahead.

2:05:33 I’m sorry. Uh, powderpuff plays this Saturday, Uhhuh, uh, so beat the blue. And then, uh, uh, the, uh, football team plays next Thursday at Swamp Scott, again, beat the blow. That Great. Thank you. All right, I’ll second the powder puff for the senior.

2:05:51 Nice. Aye, I have a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. Second. Alright. All in favor. All right. This meeting is adjourned. Thank you.